Comments on The Green Phone Booth: Why I Started Eating Meat Again after 12 Years as ...

Am I the only person who read this 'Also, to...

2011-11-29T05:18:52.437-08:00

Am I the only person who read this

'Also, to those who speak of "humane slaughter," please do your research. I don't want to have to humanely slaughter -without need- your friends, family, and pets to prove my point).'

as a threat?!

I have been a vegetarian for six years however due to pregnancy am finding I really need to eat meat again... however the only meat I will eat are either ones I catch myself (fish) and chickens from a friends farm. The animals are raised lovingly and humanely and killed very quickly . It's not perfect but it's the best I can do for now.

Thank you for your article. After 23 years of not ...

2010-10-04T08:36:55.342-07:00

Thank you for your article. After 23 years of not eating meat I made the choice a month ago to start. Some of the reasons are different but some are the same as yours.
Its something I am having a struggle with still yet I think I did the right thing.
Its nice to see Im not alone!

I think that what it comes down to is people have ...

2010-09-14T14:14:11.376-07:00

I think that what it comes down to is people have to make decisions about what they eat based on their own personal choice.
I have been veggie for 5 years, and I live in a not-so veggie friendly place (Texas). I think it just depends on the reason why someone became a vegatarian to begin with, and over time the reasons change. I became a vegatarian because I read Peter Singer, so at first it was ethical. But I have stayed veggie more because of the health benefits. I remember the day I was eating chicken and thought to myself, I can't do this anymore.
I think that our society has not given respect to animals, and have treated them like they are not alive, and this is why I stopped eating meat. The meat industry is what disgusted me. However, I can see how eating meat from local farms would be appealing becasue you would be supporting those who are treating animals well. (and people will debate about that, because in the end, people are still killing the animal to eat it). It's up to each individual person to drawn their own boundaries.
Thank you for such a great conversation on this topic!

Thank you so much for posting this. I've been ...

2010-08-14T22:05:11.251-07:00

Thank you so much for posting this. I've been struggling with this for a while. My hubby and kids never signed up to be vegetarian and I've noticed I don't cook any meat these days. Your post has helped me feel at peace with my decision to start eating meat again. Thank you!

Thank you so much for posting this. I've been ...

2010-08-14T22:04:42.940-07:00

Thank you for reading past my unfortunately typo. ...

2010-02-01T08:36:48.475-08:00

Thank you for reading past my unfortunately typo. I'm usually more careful then that.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on some matters although I do agree with many of your points.

Thanks for the information, clearly you have throughly researched this topic.

I don't think we need to cut meat out entirely but the way we include meat in our diet desperately needs to be adjusted. Out connection to the food we eat is sterile. People don't pay attention to where or how our food gets from a farm to the plastic wrapped packages in the grocers freeze (meat or vegetable) and in some cases I think they prefer not to think about it.

Every step helps and the more people know the better I think.

Hello again Tigerlily... Oh, I'm glad I was ab...

2010-01-31T21:21:44.649-08:00

Hello again Tigerlily... Oh, I'm glad I was able to read further than your first sentence... When I saw "I want to clarify that I was not talking about farmed "dear".... I thought you were being snarky with me... Calling me "dear".

In any case - Yes, I was including the small gang of 10-20 guys who hunt together too... In your case of Ontario - it is no different than the U.S. Cervids are considered secondary livestock. Fallow deer, red deer, white-tail deer, elk, etc. are bred up there just like in the lower 48.

The Ontario Ministry of Agriculture Food and Rural Affairs Deer and Elk website. Here you will find a wealth of information relevant to Ontario's Deer and Elk industry. http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/alternat/deerelk.htm

The Ontario Deer & Elk Farmers Association
http://www.ontariodeerelkfarmers.com/

And even if these animals were only raised on these farms and intended for "harvesting" for meat (and not "sport") many escape despite the required high fences to confine them. Also - Even though they might be bred for meat they may be transported for "sport" to a secondary location.

I often find it perplexing that when it comes to transporting these animals as a method of population control, officials and experts say it is unwise or (illegal). Yet, if done for profit... Well --- You get my drift.

About deer causing accidents due to rutting and mating rather than disorientation, there's much controversy in the studies I've seen. Some have shown statistically that accident numbers increase on the weekends and holidays... Which wouldn't make much sense regarding the first theory... But would apply if the the guns and disturbance in the woods spooked the deer more than usual. Besides, there are alternatives that could keep motorists safe from deer such as reflectors, high fencing, barricades, scent repellants, etc. But then again the cost of saving lives does not compare with to the revenue the "sport" generates.

And there are effective ways to control ticks as well:
http://www.aldf.com/fourPoster2.shtml
Interesting to note about Lymes Disease - The AVMA has put out a special warning to hunters as they and their dogs are in high risk of being in contact with ticks and often transport ticks into urban areas:
http://www.avma.org/public_health/zoonotic_risks/hunters_precautions.asp

And as far as tradition goes... Not all traditions are worthy of admiration and respect. Tradition should never be an excuse for cruelty, and surely harmful practices should not be condoned just because they are cultural practices. If there is a genuine "need" for food... Of course no one would say there was intentional cruelty... But since it's obvious we are breeding these animals just to be hunted - And since the "culling" only perpetuates a cycle of over-breeding, it just seems we are justifying the cruelty of the "sport" rather than seeking to abolish the "problem".

It was never my intention to "shame" people, but to express my POV. I think I've defended my position as best I can and offer an olive branch in parting - I totally agree: "An attempt to cut down on meat should be applauded in a society that considers regular cheap large portions of meat a right." But I do think the end goal should be headed towards elimination entirely.

Nice meeting you.

I want to clarify that I was not talking about far...

2010-01-31T16:08:02.414-08:00

I want to clarify that I was not talking about farmed dear. Clearly farmed dear would have the same issues as farmed beef. I was thinking about small hunt clubs (10-20 men) who go into the forest and shoot 3 dear during the 2 week season and split the meat between them. These dear do not come from farms, at least not in my area, which is North Ontario, Canada.

You are right dear do cause traffic accidents and in some cases the deaths of humans. This is not due to disorientation based on fear, but the fact that the dear are rutting, mating. The males are wild to find females, who are attempting to mate only with the best males. These accidents continue through the winter as the going is tough.

Increased dear population also increases tick populations that can bring humans in contact with lime disease. I don't promote dear cull. But I do value traditional culture and the organic nature of hunting for food. I don't believe hunters should fire unless they can ensure a kill and should something go amiss the dear should be tracked and "put out of its misery" as soon as possible. The idea of so many unretrieved dear is horrific to me, and a sign that the hunt is not being undertaken with the respect I think it demands.

Again I think everyone needs to do as they find best. Education and discussion is good in all forms but I don't feel it is necessary to shame people who eat meat once or twice a week (as I do) regardless of where it comes from. An attempt to cut down on meat should be applauded in a society that considers regular cheap large portions of meat a right.

Hi Karen - I beg to differ: "... but would co...

2010-01-31T08:54:49.386-08:00

Hi Karen - I beg to differ: "... but would consider the fact that most people are aware of vegetarianism. The general public, however, is *not* aware that there are humanely-raised meat options."

Most people indeed are under the assumption that animals go either (willingly) or peacefully to their death: The enactment of the 1958"Humane Slaughter Act", had every intention of proposing and "ensuring" this myth.

Through the years, I'm still amazed at how many people still think animals are "put to sleep" first... I guess you know what you want to know. (?)

But about vegetarianism, or more specifically veganism... Most in our western culture consider this "fringe" and the choice requiring all sorts of "supplements" and artificial nourishment --- Of course the more affluent we become - we begin to realize this just isn't so...

I have no problem with people approaching a plant based diet via meat "reduction" in their diets... But advocating "happy meat" just seems to allow people to avoid the step towards end goal of reduction/elimination.

At least in personal experience - it's been this way...

Kudos to you, Erin, for writing this post. Food is...

2010-01-31T08:29:50.721-08:00

Kudos to you, Erin, for writing this post. Food is a subject that I've found people are almost always defensive about--be they meat-eaters, vegetarians, or whatever. I think the tradition of food as a social event has something to do with how fiercely people act and feel about it. I can understand why you'd be concerned about posting this.

I read most of the comments, but not all. Returning to your original post and a few comments about "flexitarian": I admire the way Barbara Kingsolver's daughter approached defining herself as a vegetarian. She said, in Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, that she "only ate humanely-raised meat sparingly." It seems an appropriate way to handle questions about her food choices--she is spreading the word about the availability of humanely-raised meat (regardless of whether vegetarians believe that is possible). You commented later that you want to spread the word about vegetarianism, not flexitarianism, but I would consider the fact that most people are aware of vegetarianism. The general public, however, is *not* aware that there are humanely-raised meat options. You would be introducing a new sustainable choice to more people this way. It would also force folks to consider eating less meat--a key to global sustainability. I imagine meat-eating folks would feel more comfortable thinking and talking about Meatless Mondays than about total vegetarian converisons with someone who also eats meat on occasion. Something to consider.

(For the record, I'm a vegetarian.)

Hi Tigerlily... Actually if you Google "deer ...

2010-01-30T19:01:19.604-08:00

Hi Tigerlily... Actually if you Google "deer farms" or go to The North American Deer Farming Association
http://www.nadefa.org/images/stories/cervid-report.pdf

On page 7 there is a map showing more than 1500 deer and cervid farms in the US. This map is from 2007 - So I can only assume there are more of these farms now.

These facilities operate much like "factory farms"... Deer semen is collected - Genes and hormones are manipulated to create animals with desired "qualities". There is the artificial insemination... Fawns are removed from their mothers and bottle fed.

These animals are also kept on antibiotics... and growth hormones. When the fawns reach mating age they are kept either as breeding stock or are released as "game".

Now... These deer are almost "tame". They've known little of the wild as they were kept in confinement all their lives. I don't know that this is such a great alternative to "sustainable" or "humane" meat. Automobile/deer accidents increase during hunting season - Disoriented deer increase safety hazards. And health wise...there are also issues with CWD - Cronic Wasting Disease. Possible lead poisoning from bullets - the spread of ticks, etc...

Many areas also allow for bow hunting --- So if bad shots with a rifle aren't enough of a put off, surely a slow death from a blow with an arrow might be. (?) Death from an arrow they say is one of the most painful ways to go... It can take days for the suffering to end.

Whether by bow or gun, in Wisconsin alone there were 68,000 wounded deer that were never recovered... Add numbers in from the rest of the nation and we can see this is a brutality that most would not condone... Surely there's a better way?

This uncovers some of the myth regarding deer "overpopulation"... If we were overpopulated --- Then why on earth are we breeding more? Ah yes, the money and the toleration of those who want the thrill of the kill.

Indeed most of the "wild" game hunters "enjoy" come from breeding compounds - pheasants, ducks, geese, grouse, quail, deer, elk and so forth...

Another part of the puzzle with deer management is in what is called "Compensatory Rebound Effect". Once the herd is "culled" - There is less competition for food - Deer respond by mating earlier and having twins more often to "take advantage" of the bounty... The deer are just following what they perceive as "nature's plan": more food, less of "us"... make more babies. So killing deer to "control deer" becomes a vicious, (but profitable)cycle.

And speaking of profits - That's one of the main reasons why non-lethal measures haven't been investigated in earnest. There's just nothing to be gained (for hunting humans) - to control the populations without killing them.

And finally - yes, they grow crops to attract deer... I just wonder how much better we would be if we grew crops to feed humans instead.

That's my piece - I don't think deer eating is a viable, option either.

Now I didn't read all the previous comments bu...

2010-01-30T16:35:02.164-08:00

Now I didn't read all the previous comments but I wonder has anyone thought about hunted meat? Yes the animal is still killed or murdered however you would like to label it. It does however take out the fear portion. This way the animal is organic, extremely free range and was able to lead a good life in the wild. In many cases being shot is a very humane death compared to the slow starvation that would occur the winter months. [This case is in reference to deer specifically as in many areas they are over populated and there isn't enough food to sustain that population over the winter.]

Again I understand that some hunters do not hunt in an ethical manner. My father however always told me he'd been taught never to take a shot unless you know you can down the deer in one shot.

This is just another idea to sustainable meat eating.

Thanks for your insights. I don't eat a lot o...

2010-01-29T13:45:12.043-08:00

Thanks for your insights. I don't eat a lot of meat, but I need to think more carefully about where I'm getting my meat from.

I did catch the episode of Lost though... My first...

2010-01-29T09:58:55.254-08:00

I did catch the episode of Lost though... My first impulse, in the same situation would be to find and eat the food the pig was living on...

So definately if we were on an island... Or we were Inuits, or bushmen - Things would be a lot different... I try to assume though, that since we are communicating over the internet, that most of those scenarios don't apply. I've lived in the "boonies" and had to stock up on "staples" --- Nothing keeps without electricity like beans and rice! :)

Chandelle, I'm where you are. I don't eat ...

2010-01-29T07:56:10.657-08:00

Chandelle, I'm where you are. I don't eat meat right now, so my comment wasn't anti-vegetarian (I know you didn't take it that way) But I definitely think things are going to change, and sometimes I can't get over how incredibly privileged WE ALL ARE in this society and that we forget others aren't. I'm lucky in that I have extended family who hail from very un-industrialized countries, and to them, the whole vegetarian thing is not only a mystery, but, well, a joke. Because, you know, they'd starve otherwise. And you're so right, we do all just work with what we have, and more importantly,most of real life is shades of gray, not black and white.

As a vegan, I was always very aware that I was inc...

2010-01-29T07:36:05.151-08:00

As a vegan, I was always very aware that I was incredibly privileged to be so picky and conscious of my eating habits, and I tried to never take that for granted. I tend to be on Derrick Jensen's side when it comes to industrial civilization. So even as I've tried to be as ethical as I can with the choices *currently* available to me, I've also been aware that things might (almost certainly) (hopefully) will change dramatically in the future, and I need to be prepared for that. It's never been squeamishness about killing that's stopped me from eating meat, and that's not what's stopping me now. It's about not wanting to destroy an animal's life unnecessarily, and right now, it's obviously not necessary for me. That might change in the future, but I can only work with what I've got right now. Make sense?

Anonymous, your comment made me think of the first season of LOST (I'm sure everyone here is too cool to watch it :), where Kate says she doesn't want any of the boar they caught on the island after their plane crashed because she's a vegetarian. Even though I'm a vegetarian, too, I snorted at that, saying out loud, "That's gonna change pretty soon, sweetheart." We all just work with what we have.

I know I'm late to the game, but I feel the pr...

2010-01-29T05:39:12.254-08:00

I know I'm late to the game, but I feel the premise of die-hard vegetarianism is Euro-centric and privileged. While I do personally believe that with a well balanced vegetarian diet any human being could survive - this just isn't possible for all human life. It's possible for those of us who live privileged lives in the industrial world. What can you say to someone who lives in the Sahara desert? Or parts of Alaska or Canada where it is deep winter most of the year? What will happen if (or when) civilization fails and there are no stores, no trucks, and the weather has destroyed all crops? That's even supposing that people will be staying in one place long enough to grow and plant crops. There are places in the world like that today. Where the only food is to kill (humanely or not) the family goat. Places where if you don't kill the family goat to eat, then another starved predator might come along and kill and eat it. Is that better than a human killing it to eat it? Some people might think so and that's fine, but that is why for most of the time people have been on this earth, they have eaten the way Michael Pollan describes: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants." You ate meat when you HAD to. Which is why, if the world does get to this sad place, a lot of die hard vegetarians will be forced to make a decision. Most people outside the industrialized world today don't even have that choice.

@Jenn the Greenmom - Hi... You asked about a "...

2010-01-28T19:22:07.269-08:00

@Jenn the Greenmom - Hi... You asked about a "study". I have a few responses - the first is the American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357

Secondly - Since veganism was defined by Donald Watson in the early forties, we could say that a total "plant based diet" is relatively new. And because there was such a small number of vegans until just recently... there has been little "history" to conduct an accurate "study".

And lastly, consider the opposition to such a study. I recall reading somewhere that there are over 8,000 lobbyists representing the meat and dairy industries. The meat industry is a $165,000 billion dollar business... Imagine trying to "go up" against that kind of influence and power? Generally fresh fruits and vegetables have no "name brand"... There is no corporation with the kind of funding it would take to "prove" that broccoli, carrots, beans etc. are better than: Tyson, Smithfield, McDonalds, etc. And being that cattle, pig and chicken parts are used by the government as political and economic leverage with other countries... The resistance to any "study" conducted by them, is obvious.

With all these factors in consideration - I think it's quite amazing that veganism has landed itself in the public and cultural eye after all... Goes to show - that word of mouth, from those like me - who have had convincing success stories - have been able to propel the idea to mainstream. 3 - 5 years ago most people didn't even know what a vegan was... And well, now it seems there's all sorts of shallow excuses one must make, to not be one! :)

@Cherie - I do hope you will read my comment about "ensuring" humane slaughter. Really, there are NO guarantees to this. Any honest slaughter man will confess that, no matter what the intent... sometimes things go very bad for the animal during the process.

@Amy - More so than being "blessed" to have such abundance to ponder what or rather who we put into our stomachs; I believe we are blessed with the wherewithal that enables us to contemplate the pros and cons of those choices.

And many times those choices are slim to none. I can't imagine the limited options Leonardo de Vinci... Or Tolstoy... Or Albert Schweitzer had. Of course we all don't aspire to be these figures. But I know myself, and have heard many vegans say that at certain times, they had to refrain from eating at "the bounty" because everything had (some) extinguished animal-life it it... And to paraphrase J Foer, when he retells the story in his book Eating Animals; His Orthodox Jewish grandmother declined "ham" during her struggle of survival during the Nazi occupation; She did so because "If nothing matters, there's nothing left to save". But clearly... some eat to live - while others live to eat...

Finally, there are a few who would call the vegan responses "rude"... I would only ask you to see from the other side --- How frustrating it is to read and hear the words - "humane meat". Try as some might to make it so... the choice to take an innocent life without "cause" - can never be considered kind.

Wow! Such vitriol from compassionate people. Aren...

2010-01-28T09:37:04.407-08:00

Wow! Such vitriol from compassionate people.

Aren't we all blessed to have enough food available to be able to pick and choose what we eat?

It's really difficult to have sustainable crop production without some sort of animal component. I suppose those who were morally/ethically against the killing of animals should make sure their food wasn't produced with compost containing manure or fish products. It would pretty much rule out organic foods. It's a complicated issue- we all must choose, knowingly or not, at what point in the food chain (or other production cycle) something must die or suffer for our own survival.

@Cherie - Thanks! You were one of the readers that...

2010-01-27T17:08:05.721-08:00

@Cherie - Thanks! You were one of the readers that I was worried about offending since I know you're a vegetarian. I really appreciate your supportive words.

@Jenn - Strangely enough, it hasn't affected m...

2010-01-27T17:05:16.331-08:00

@Jenn - Strangely enough, it hasn't affected me as much as negative comments I've gotten in the past. Maybe because I was expecting it this time, and other times I accidentally said something that offended someone. Or maybe it's just that I'm feeling pretty confident in this decision. Plus, a cousin of mine told me on Facebook that she was really grateful for this post, so that was nice. And my super awesome friend Maren also left a nice comment.

I completely agree with your comment that maybe just maybe not everyone needs the same foods to thrive. I've often wondered if there's an ethnic factor, though here in the U.S where ethnicities are so mixed, I think it would be hard to study. I also wonder if there's a gender difference - it seems like men generally crave meat more than women do, and I've definitely known more vegetarian women than men. Interesting points to bring up!

Erin - great post. While I am a vegetarian, I res...

2010-01-27T16:45:42.810-08:00

Erin - great post. While I am a vegetarian, I respect the choice to eat meat. My husband is a meat eater but he has chosen to do what you do - only eat humanely raised meat. In our case, we have a farm and he actually raises the animals and ensures that they have peaceful lives and are humanely slaughtered. Thanks for sharing your journey and beliefs.

(Okay, wow...Erin, are you holding up okay?) Some...

2010-01-27T15:41:02.224-08:00

(Okay, wow...Erin, are you holding up okay?)

Some interesting points have come up in all of this...a significant number of vegans have popped on here saying, "I have been a vegan forever and never found a need or even a desire for meat, that proves all people can be fully healthy without meat."

Then another significant group have also spoken up, saying in effect, "I tried being a vegetarian, giving up all meat, and I was unhealthy and felt like crap." (Into which group I also fall, by the way...I was only a vegetarian for about 8 months, and for about the last two of those I just felt really weak and unwell...I had one meal with a small amount of meat and literally overnight felt normal again. It was really bizarre; it was the first time I'd ever considered that there was something in meat my body might actually need.) (And yes, I was a careful vegetarian, so it wasn't that I wasn't doing it right.) We currently subsist on the "meat as condiment" approach--we don't eat much, and we only eat it a couple of days a week, if that, usually as a small part of another dish.

I wonder if anyone's done any studies around whether or not some people do or do not thrive on animal protein, or can or cannot thrive without? If there might literally be something physiological about it? My husband has this goofy book that ties this to blood type, and I personally don't think it holds much academic water, but...it's not a stupid question. Instead of assuming All People Need The Same Foods To Thrive, I wonder if there's a way to look at alternative needs, whether biological, cultural (short-term evolutionary, if it makes sense--just meaning that certain traits will get strengthened and passed on within certain interlinked groups of people), stuff like that...

Just thinking out loud now. Anyone ever heard of any such study? (Please, dear vegans, do not respond with variations on the initial argument...)

Thanks, Erin, for bringing up the topic--measured and open conversations about this kind of thing are really important.
--Jenn

Erin, I'd like to add one more comment. You s...

2010-01-27T12:09:07.490-08:00

Erin, I'd like to add one more comment.
You should have kept your return to meateating to yourself. By posting this, all you've accomplished is helping others to feel good about their own meat eating, and I have news for you, most of them won't be buying the so called "humane meat" that you do but will be buying meat that came from factory farms.
Good job!!

As for my strategy for converting meat eaters... I...

2010-01-27T11:43:57.804-08:00

As for my strategy for converting meat eaters... I actually don't use the same tone with full-blown meateaters. I consider those who have always eaten meat to simply be ignorant of the facts, therefore It's my job to educate them. However, people who have been vegetarian/vegan and found ways to justify returning to eating animal flesh, that's a different ballgame. If you made it work for 12 years, then clearly there was no justifiable reason to go back to flesh eating. I have seen this happen before because of the pressure of a spouse. My own cousin who was veg married a meat eater. Of course initially he did the veg thing for her, but it wasn't really in his heart so as the marriage progressed fish came back into the diet, and then turkey just on thanksgiving...etc. How romantic to compromise a core value for hubby.
So while I may have hurt someone's little feelings on a blog page, YOU are condoning the murder of animals, there's no comparison.
Keep patting each other on the back because you "only eat a little bit of meat" therefore your only murdering a few animals.

Furthermore, I'm only capable of hurting your feeling If you already feel bad about what your doing.